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recall that you can click on the

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timestamp in the description to skip

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this intro it's generally beneficial to

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speak to one another live as facial

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expressions and vocal tonality convey

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much that's lost over text especially

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text that's limited to a certain amount

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of characters that's one of the reasons

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for today's theo locution with sabine

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haasenfelder and bernardo castro as the

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medium of twitter has one's twitter

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following requesting bloodshed however

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truculence pales in comparison to

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congenial mutual constructiveness and

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the latter is which theolocutions are or

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at least what they are at their best

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sabina hossenfelder is a theoretical

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physicist researching quantum gravity as

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well as having the ever elucidating

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youtube channel sabina hostenfelder link

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in the description as well as being a

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researcher one of the prime researchers

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in super determinism super determinism

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is what brings us here today at least

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thematically and at most inevitably if

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the theory is to be believed bernardo

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castro is the executive director of the

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essentia foundation all links are in the

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description by the way bernardo is one

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of the most cogent champions of

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metaphysical idealism the view that

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reality is essentially mental put

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forward with the analytical precision

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imbued in him from his phd in philosophy

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and computer engineering click on the

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time stamp in the description if you'd

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like to skip this intro my name is

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kirchey mungle i'm a torontonian

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filmmaker with a background in

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mathematical physics dedicated to the

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explication of the variegated terrain of

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theories of everything from a

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theoretical physics perspective but as

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well as analyzing consciousness and

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seeing its potential connection to

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fundamental reality whatever that is

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essentially this channel is dedicated to

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exploring the under nature of reality

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the constitutional laws that govern it

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provided those laws exist at all and are

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even noble to us if you enjoy witnessing

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and engaging with others on the topics

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of psychology consciousness physics etc

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the channels themes then do consider

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going to the discord and the subreddit

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which are linked in the description

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there's also a link to the patreon that

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is patreon.com slash kirchheim uncle if

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you'd like to support this podcast as

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the patrons and the sponsors are the

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only reasons that i'm able to have

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podcasts of this quality and this depth

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given that i can do this now full time

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thanks to both the patrons and the

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sponsors support speaking of sponsors

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there are two the first sponsor is

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brilliant during the winter break i

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decided to brush up on some of the

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fundamentals of physics particularly

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with regard to information theory as i'd

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like to interview chiara marletto on

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constructor theory which is heavily

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based in information theory now

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information theory is predicated on

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entropy at least there's a fundamental

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formula for entropy so i ended up taking

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the brilliant course i challenged myself

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to do one lesson per day and i took the

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course's random variable distributions

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and knowledge slash uncertainty what i

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loved is that despite knowing the

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formula for entropy which is essentially

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hammered into you as an undergraduate it

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seems like it comes down from the sky

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arbitrarily and with brilliance for the

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first time i was able to see how the

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formula for entropy which you're seeing

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right now is actually extremely natural

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and it'd be strange to define it in any

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other manner there are plenty of courses

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and you can even learn group theory

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which is what's being referenced when

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you hear that the standard model is

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predicated on u1 cross su 2 cross su 3

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those are lead groups continuous lead

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groups visit brilliant.org

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toetoe to get 20 off an annual

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don't stop before four lessons i think

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you'll be greatly surprised at the ease

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at which you can now comprehend subjects

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you previously had a difficult time

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grocking the second sponsor is algo now

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algo is an end-to-end supply chain

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hussein who's been a huge supporter of

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this podcast since near its inception in

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fact amjad has his own podcast on ai and

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consciousness and business growth and if

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you'd like to support the tow podcast

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then visit the link in the description

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to see amjad's podcast because

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subscribing to him or at least visiting

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supports the toe podcast indirectly

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thank you and enjoy we should be live

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if you can see this

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please type in

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dexter's lab

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you're saying that to us

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to the audience to the live chat if you

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can see this type in dexter's lab

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so sabina why don't you start with an

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overview of what super determinism is

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for people who

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perhaps aren't as acquainted as you are

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okay so

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super determinism isn't really a theory

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it's a property of a class of theories

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which you find in the foundations of

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quantum mechanics

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and they are designed to solve a problem

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which is the measurement problem

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uh in quantum mechanics more precisely

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the problem is that in quantum mechanics

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we have

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an evolution law for the wave function

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which is the schrodinger equation that

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everybody who's listening has probably

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heard of and then we have the update of

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the wave function which is sometimes

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called the collapse or the reduction of

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the wave function and

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this update is non-local which means

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it's not compatible with einstein's

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theory of general relativity

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and now there are several ways people

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try to wiggle out of this one and that's

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probably the most popular one at the

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moment is to say well it's just not a

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physical process we're just updating our

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knowledge about something let's not ask

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about what because that's where the

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problem starts

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and um that has its own problems uh one

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of which is that it doesn't actually

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tell us

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what's happening physically like i mean

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we have to put something there if we

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want to take the expectation value of

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something so just what is it that

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locally happens so it's compatible with

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general relativity the other problem

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with this idea of updating knowledge uh

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and

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stuff like this

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is that we think of quantum mechanics as

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a fundamental theory that describes the

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constituents of nature and that means

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that

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in its assumptions there shouldn't be

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any macroscopic objects or other

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expressions like detector observer

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knowledge and that kind of thing instead

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it should follow from the theory now you

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may say well the obvious way to fix this

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is just to replace this weird collapse

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with a local process that's compatible

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with um einstein's assumption of

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relativity and so on

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and it brings up the question like why

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haven't physicists tried to do this well

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the reason is that um 50 years ago or

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something um they became convinced that

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this isn't possible notably because of

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bell's theorem so bell's theorem says

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basically if you want a theory to make a

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long story short that describes our

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observations

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um

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which

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is

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local

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like the way that we would want to have

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it then it has to violate an assumption

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that's called statistical independence

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and that's what's called super

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determinism

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okay now you may wonder why the heck is

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it called super determinism if it's

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about violating statistical

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independence and i don't know it's just

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that that's what it came to be called um

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a theory which

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violates statistical independence

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doesn't even necessarily have to be

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deterministic

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and

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then there are a lot of philosophers who

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have gone on to

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claim that this requires some kind of

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conspiracy that it would require us to

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throw out free will and so on so it's

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been loaded with this philosophical

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baggage which for me as a

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phenomenologist is completely irrelevant

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you know the only thing i want is i want

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a local theory that reproduces quantum

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mechanics on the average so

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oh yeah i forgot to say this so

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those theories which underlie quantum

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mechanics are hidden variables theories

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so they say well the reason that quantum

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mechanics looks uh random

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non-deterministic is because there's

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some information which we don't know and

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those are the hidden variables and as

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always i have to add that they're only

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called hidden because of some historical

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quirk in the nomenclature

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that it doesn't mean that they are

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unobservable they may at some point

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become observable they're just not

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present in the current formulation of

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quantum mechanics

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great and bernardo what are your

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thoughts on that what do you agree with

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and what do you disagree with perhaps we

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can put this in the form of an amiable

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criticism where you start with the

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disagreements and then end on the

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agreements

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it's pretty easy to do because i i agree

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with the great many things zabina just

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said

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and with the values that she espouses

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and fights for and like her

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the bernardo of today not the bernardo

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20 years ago or 25 years ago but the

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barnardo of today is against

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metaphysical commitments in science like

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the platonic commitment that built his

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truth

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so true theories should be beautiful and

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beautiful theories should be true i got

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burned very early on with the super

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symmetry which we used to call susie i

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don't know whether it's still called

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susie but the idea is suzy is so

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beautiful we all fell in love with susie

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so susie needed to be true it's not at

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least not in the energy ranges where we

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can look with the lhc turns out it's not

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true

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so i think it's a good value to espouse

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that science should be guided by

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hard-nosed empirical evidence

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not by metaphysical commitment

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uh by notions of truth and beauty being

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the same thing

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and not by

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fantasy entities like

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the many worlds interpretation

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or the many hyperdimensional brains and

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brain collisions of m theory and all

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kinds of fantasies that that are still

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00:09:58,630 --> 00:09:57,040
put forward in physics so i'm i'm right

283
00:10:00,470 --> 00:09:58,640
with her

284
00:10:03,910 --> 00:10:00,480
in all this point

285
00:10:05,829 --> 00:10:03,920
um i do feel though that when it comes

286
00:10:07,030 --> 00:10:05,839
to hidden variables

287
00:10:08,630 --> 00:10:07,040
zabini

288
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:08,640
runs the risk or maybe he's already

289
00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:11,680
doing it of of betraying those values

290
00:10:15,670 --> 00:10:14,000
because although it may be a historical

291
00:10:17,829 --> 00:10:15,680
quirk there is a good reason hidden

292
00:10:20,069 --> 00:10:17,839
variables are called hidden nobody has

293
00:10:22,790 --> 00:10:20,079
ever observed them now it's worse than

294
00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:22,800
that nobody has ever defined them they

295
00:10:26,630 --> 00:10:25,040
are not even well-formed theoretical

296
00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:26,640
fantasies

297
00:10:31,590 --> 00:10:28,640
nobody said what they are and how they

298
00:10:34,310 --> 00:10:31,600
work the only thing that he said is well

299
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:34,320
if we want to safeguard certain

300
00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:36,640
metaphysical assumptions

301
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:38,800
then there should be these variables we

302
00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:40,640
don't know what they are that somehow we

303
00:10:45,030 --> 00:10:42,800
don't know how do what they need to do

304
00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:45,040
so we can stick to our

305
00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:47,040
favorite metaphysical assumptions and in

306
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:48,160
this case

307
00:10:53,350 --> 00:10:50,880
the assumption is not determinism i i am

308
00:10:55,829 --> 00:10:53,360
with sabine that i want to have a

309
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:55,839
deterministic theory for single

310
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:58,399
measurements not only for ensembles i

311
00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:00,399
want to predict the outcome of a single

312
00:11:04,949 --> 00:11:02,000
measurement and everything we've learned

313
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:04,959
in science over the past 4 500 500 years

314
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,600
tells us that this should be possible

315
00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:10,320
because it has always been possible up

316
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:11,839
until now

317
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:14,480
but the way to do this i think

318
00:11:19,269 --> 00:11:17,200
is not to reject what 40 years of

319
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:19,279
experiments have been telling us which

320
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,040
is that a certain metaphysical

321
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:23,600
assumption called physical realism is

322
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:24,560
false

323
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,360
physical realism is the notion that

324
00:11:31,509 --> 00:11:29,200
physical properties have standalone

325
00:11:33,829 --> 00:11:31,519
existence that they were already there

326
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:33,839
before you measure them and that the act

327
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:36,240
of measurement simply discloses what

328
00:11:39,269 --> 00:11:38,240
they already were immediately prior to

329
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:39,279
measurement

330
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:41,040
there's another technical term for this

331
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:43,279
it's known contextuality

332
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:44,560
now i think experiments have been

333
00:11:49,829 --> 00:11:48,240
telling us that this is not the case

334
00:11:51,509 --> 00:11:49,839
and and it's not that strange

335
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:51,519
experiments are telling us that physical

336
00:11:54,870 --> 00:11:52,639
properties

337
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:54,880
appear as a product of the act of

338
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:56,720
measurement now how can we understand

339
00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:00,480
this just think of an airplane cockpit

340
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:02,720
what is displayed on the dials is the

341
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:05,360
result of what the sensors outside the

342
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:08,079
airplane are measuring about the real

343
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:11,120
world outside if you don't make those

344
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:12,720
measurements there is nothing on the

345
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:15,200
dashboard the dials display nothing

346
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:17,360
nothing is there does that mean that

347
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:19,920
there is no world of course not it only

348
00:12:23,829 --> 00:12:21,600
means that you are not measuring the

349
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:23,839
world and therefore you see nothing i

350
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,320
think what experiment is telling us is

351
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:28,399
that the physical entities we talk about

352
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:30,079
today the physical properties we talk

353
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:31,920
about today the observables of quantum

354
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:35,120
mechanics mass angular momentum charge

355
00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:37,040
all those good things they are the

356
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:39,760
dashboard they are not the world as it

357
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,320
is in and of itself they are the way a

358
00:12:47,269 --> 00:12:44,399
deeper layer of reality

359
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,279
presents itself to us how it presents

360
00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:49,680
itself to us and therefore if we don't

361
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,440
measure there are no physical properties

362
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:53,279
for the same reason that the airplane

363
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,440
sensors don't measure the world outside

364
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,360
nothing is on the dashboard the physical

365
00:13:00,949 --> 00:12:59,519
world is the dashboard and i think

366
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:00,959
heeding this

367
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:03,120
and understanding what nature has been

368
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:05,360
communicating to us after decades of

369
00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:07,279
consistent experiments

370
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,760
is the way to find a deterministic

371
00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:11,839
theory for single measurements

372
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:13,600
sabina what is your response and feel

373
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:15,200
free to speak directly to bernardo no

374
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:16,720
need to say bernardo or him just say

375
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,680
your

376
00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:19,200
for example

377
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:21,279
well you've been

378
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:22,880
talking about what experiments are

379
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:24,320
telling us but how do you know what

380
00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:26,399
experiments are telling us well you need

381
00:13:30,550 --> 00:13:28,320
some mathematics that extracts

382
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:30,560
information from the data

383
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:31,600
and

384
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:34,480
in your interpretation you strongly rely

385
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:37,279
on certain assumptions that go into

386
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:39,279
the derivation of certain inequalities

387
00:13:44,629 --> 00:13:42,160
one of this assumption is statistical

388
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:44,639
independence so if you don't have this

389
00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:46,880
assumption of statistical independence

390
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:48,480
then those experiments tell you

391
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,199
something entirely different um

392
00:13:55,030 --> 00:13:53,440
just to give a concrete example how you

393
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:55,040
can look at violations of belts

394
00:13:59,110 --> 00:13:57,360
inequality and that that's also

395
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:59,120
it goes the same way for

396
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,880
all other kinds of inequalities really

397
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,320
it doesn't really matter which one is

398
00:14:07,269 --> 00:14:04,880
chsh or

399
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:07,279
legates or what have you

400
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:08,639
they all make this assumption of

401
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:15,430
concretely the conclusion which you can

402
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:18,079
draw from the observed violations of

403
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,120
those inequalities is

404
00:14:25,990 --> 00:14:22,880
that

405
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:26,000
describes

406
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:29,040
nature must violate at least one of the

407
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:30,399
assumptions

408
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:34,399
and normally people say well we assume

409
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:37,120
that statistical independence has to be

410
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:38,399
valid

411
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:41,279
let's not ask right now why that is then

412
00:14:46,310 --> 00:14:43,120
it follows that local causality has to

413
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:46,320
be violated if you on the other hand say

414
00:14:51,829 --> 00:14:49,600
well we we want the theory to be local

415
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:51,839
then it follows statistical independence

416
00:14:59,030 --> 00:14:55,680
has to be violated and in my mind that's

417
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:59,040
the more promising way to pursue because

418
00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:00,560
as i just said

419
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:03,040
locality is fulfilled in nitrogen's

420
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:04,800
theory of general relativity and

421
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:06,720
eventually those two theories have to

422
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:08,160
communicate with each other which is

423
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:09,760
kind of a big unsolved problem blah blah

424
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:11,760
blah it can talk about this for an hour

425
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:14,079
but i assume you're uh familiar with

426
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,519
that

427
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,760
and also maybe i should before i forget

428
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:19,839
about this all this talk about

429
00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:22,320
physical realism and so on and so forth

430
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:25,760
it goes past me basically because i

431
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,920
would say i'm an instrumentalist you

432
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:30,560
know i i care about what i can predict

433
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:32,959
with my theory if you want to call

434
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,120
something about this real or not real or

435
00:15:39,509 --> 00:15:37,600
whatever i i'll leave this up to

436
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,519
philosophers

437
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,360
maybe on a very general level i could

438
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:43,680
say that in the hidden variables theory

439
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:46,399
the wave function itself isn't a real

440
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:48,560
thing it's some kind of an average value

441
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:50,720
it isn't any more real

442
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:51,680
than

443
00:15:55,110 --> 00:15:53,600
the average person you know that's not

444
00:15:56,949 --> 00:15:55,120
that's not a real thing that's a

445
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,959
statistical thing you can define it you

446
00:16:01,030 --> 00:15:58,800
can write it down but it doesn't really

447
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,040
exist in the real world

448
00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:03,920
right now hidden variables theories are

449
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:05,120
philosophy

450
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,880
you don't specify what the hidden

451
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:08,800
variables are you don't say how they

452
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:10,720
work you don't have an equation i look

453
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:13,519
at your path integral the key term in

454
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:15,360
the in your path integral or at least as

455
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,440
of 2020 is

456
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,959
quantumness

457
00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:20,959
which is a placeholder for something you

458
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,480
want to put there at some point into the

459
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:24,079
key term because that's what you want to

460
00:16:30,069 --> 00:16:27,040
minimize nature wants to minimize

461
00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:30,079
quantumness according to you

462
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,240
this is not theory

463
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:34,720
this this is not even the outline of a

464
00:16:39,110 --> 00:16:37,199
theory this this is a philosophy now

465
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:39,120
regarding you you're talking about the

466
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:41,360
wrong paper i hope

467
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,160
if you excuse me um for interrupting you

468
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:46,639
but this is indeed not a hidden

469
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:48,560
variables theory and nothing in the

470
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:50,959
paper claims it is you're looking at the

471
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:52,480
wrong paper

472
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:54,320
the paper you should be looking at is

473
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:57,120
called a local deterministic toy model

474
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:58,959
and it does have hidden variables we

475
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:00,959
explain exactly what they are and how

476
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:03,600
you specify what the hidden variables

477
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:04,480
are

478
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:06,880
precisely specified so you can control

479
00:17:09,990 --> 00:17:08,640
for their state when you reset the

480
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:10,000
experimental conditions in your

481
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:12,160
experimental proposal so you know

482
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,600
exactly how to bring the hidden

483
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,760
variables to the initial state

484
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:17,679
that's a completely different that's a

485
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:19,520
completely different question you're

486
00:17:25,909 --> 00:17:22,799
asking did i define the variables

487
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:25,919
right i've i've defined them i can tell

488
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:28,160
you what the distribution is

489
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:29,679
also i mean there's a reason the thing

490
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:32,240
is called the toy model because we we

491
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:34,320
made this up to prove a point namely

492
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:35,840
that those theories are not

493
00:17:40,390 --> 00:17:37,679
conspiratorial

494
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,400
um you you said there aren't any models

495
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:42,000
you don't know what the hidden variables

496
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,520
are i can tell you what they are they

497
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:45,440
are random variables that are uniformly

498
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:46,880
distributed

499
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:50,400
uh in the complex disk with radius one

500
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:52,400
so you want an answer to this question i

501
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:54,080
should also add you know that what you

502
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:55,919
just said about there aren't any hidden

503
00:18:01,029 --> 00:17:58,880
variables models um it's just wrong you

504
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:01,039
know it's not that my model is the only

505
00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:02,640
hidden variables model that's super

506
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:04,000
deterministic

507
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:05,840
there are others and we have the

508
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:09,039
references in the paper and um you know

509
00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:10,640
i i don't want to be too out to you on

510
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,720
this because i hear this constantly you

511
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,160
know people are always like super

512
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:15,760
determinism isn't the thing and they

513
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,240
never bother to look at the literature

514
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:20,559
um to see what models people have

515
00:18:24,549 --> 00:18:22,320
actually worked with

516
00:18:26,950 --> 00:18:24,559
so you've made many points give me a

517
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,960
chance to try to address not only one of

518
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:28,640
them but a few of them even if you don't

519
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:30,559
like what i said about the first you've

520
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:32,640
made many points in a row let me try to

521
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:35,200
address a few in a row as well before we

522
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,600
go back to this so let me do this in

523
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,080
order statistical independence you call

524
00:18:44,789 --> 00:18:42,720
it a mere assumption i don't think it is

525
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:44,799
a mere assumption so let's try to

526
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:46,720
illustrate for the audience what it

527
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:49,840
means what this technical term means

528
00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:52,720
it means that the thing you're measuring

529
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:54,400
does not change

530
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:56,960
just because you set up your measurement

531
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:59,760
apparatus in a certain way or another

532
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:01,679
for instance if you are photographing

533
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:03,039
the moon

534
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:05,760
statistical independence says that the

535
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:07,760
moon will not change will not do

536
00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:09,600
something else will not be something

537
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,559
else

538
00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:12,640
because you set your aperture or

539
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:15,440
exposure to certain values the moon is

540
00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:17,600
what it is it doesn't depend on the

541
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:19,919
settings of the instrument you use to

542
00:19:23,190 --> 00:19:21,440
make a measurement of the moon or to

543
00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:23,200
take a picture of the moon

544
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:25,039
this is what statistical independence

545
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:27,760
means is it an assumption i don't think

546
00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:31,120
it is i think the entire history of all

547
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:33,679
of science tells us that this is how

548
00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:34,960
things work

549
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:37,120
reality does not change

550
00:19:41,669 --> 00:19:39,919
based purely on the settings of what we

551
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,679
use to measure it what we use to

552
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,360
photograph the moon the moon doesn't

553
00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:45,360
change because i changed the aperture on

554
00:19:49,990 --> 00:19:48,000
my camera now you say that we cannot

555
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:50,000
carry what you call an assumption i

556
00:19:54,390 --> 00:19:51,360
don't think it's an assumption i think

557
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,400
it's a very very solid observation very

558
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,559
self-evident observation about nature in

559
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,559
all aspects of science but okay i will

560
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:00,559
continue to call it as call it an

561
00:20:05,270 --> 00:20:02,960
assumption you say we cannot carry that

562
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,280
assumption from the classical world to

563
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:07,600
the quantum world that carrying this

564
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:10,720
thing over is arbitrary but you are

565
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:12,720
carrying something over from the classic

566
00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:15,120
world to the quantum world you're trying

567
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:17,039
to carry and you don't like the isms so

568
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,559
i'm not going to call it physical

569
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:20,400
realism i'm going to specify exactly

570
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:21,600
what it is

571
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:24,400
you don't want to carry the notion that

572
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:26,720
objects have standalone sorry you do

573
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,440
want to carry the notion that objects

574
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:31,840
have a standalone existence that they

575
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:34,000
are what they are irrespective of what

576
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:36,000
they are whether they are being measured

577
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:37,760
you want to carry that over from the

578
00:20:42,549 --> 00:20:40,320
classical world to the physical world so

579
00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:42,559
i don't think you can have the cake and

580
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:44,799
eat it too either you don't carry

581
00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:46,480
assumptions from the classical to the

582
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:48,799
quantum or you do carry them and then

583
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:51,120
you ought to carry a

584
00:20:57,029 --> 00:20:53,679
statistical independence because it's

585
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:57,039
one of nature's most self-evident givens

586
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:00,080
now hidden variables themselves unless

587
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:02,559
there is something very new that you're

588
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:04,880
springing on me right now

589
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:06,880
they are not defined the experiment you

590
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:10,320
have put forward is based exactly on the

591
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,640
fact that you cannot reset the

592
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,640
experimental conditions to what they

593
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:16,320
were in the very beginning when you do a

594
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:17,919
new series of measurements on the

595
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,080
quantum system that's why you talk about

596
00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:22,480
having to cool everything down have to

597
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:24,320
reduce it having to reduce the degrees

598
00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:26,880
of freedom of the measurement apparatus

599
00:21:31,029 --> 00:21:28,799
having to do the series of measurements

600
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:31,039
very quickly in succession because

601
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:33,039
you're afraid that whatever state the

602
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:35,919
hidden variables are in they may drift

603
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,159
all that is based on the notion that you

604
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:40,480
don't know what the hidden variables are

605
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:42,880
and we don't need the hidden variables

606
00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:44,880
for anything else in nature look let's

607
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:46,400
let's take the other variables the

608
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:48,559
unhidden ones the ones we know basic

609
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:50,960
properties of physical entities let's

610
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:54,080
take mass charge and angular momentum

611
00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:57,039
if we remove them from the picture

612
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,520
we cannot account for any of the causal

613
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:01,440
chains in nature not only in a quantum

614
00:22:06,070 --> 00:22:03,840
experiment anywhere you take mass away

615
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:06,080
you cannot account for inertia you take

616
00:22:10,149 --> 00:22:07,840
angular momentum away you cannot account

617
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:10,159
for magnetism you take charge away you

618
00:22:14,470 --> 00:22:12,240
cannot account for electricity but you

619
00:22:17,990 --> 00:22:14,480
take the even hidden variables away

620
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:18,000
nothing changes we are still fine so i

621
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:19,600
think they are pure theoretical

622
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:22,000
fantasies unless and until you can see

623
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:25,039
exactly what they are how they work how

624
00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:26,480
they can be measured

625
00:22:31,029 --> 00:22:28,880
and how they can be falsified because

626
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:31,039
the experiment you have proposed

627
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,760
by construction cannot falsify the

628
00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,000
hidden variables hypothesis and i can

629
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:38,400
elaborate on this at length to explain

630
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:41,200
why i'm saying this but it okay i'll

631
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:42,880
stop i spoke enough yeah we'll let

632
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:44,480
sabina respond

633
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,280
well i noticed in your

634
00:22:51,190 --> 00:22:49,120
blog post or whatever you want to call

635
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:51,200
it that you were trying to criticize the

636
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:53,840
experiment that i proposed um

637
00:22:57,350 --> 00:22:55,440
unfortunately you don't seem to have

638
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,360
actually look at the original paper

639
00:23:01,990 --> 00:22:59,280
where proposed the experiment you quoted

640
00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:02,000
the paper from 2019 which refers to a

641
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,559
paper from 2011

642
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:06,960
i believe in which i have

643
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,200
explained exactly how you can circumvent

644
00:23:12,549 --> 00:23:11,039
this problem that you don't know how the

645
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:12,559
hidden variables

646
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:13,600
um

647
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:16,000
the state of the hidden variables for in

648
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:19,039
in the prepared state you make repeated

649
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:21,280
measurement on the same system

650
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:24,559
and then i made some estimate for um you

651
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:25,280
know

652
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:26,880
what the size of the systems would have

653
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:29,200
to be how code it um should have to be

654
00:23:33,909 --> 00:23:32,000
and so on now you're complaining that

655
00:23:35,909 --> 00:23:33,919
you can't falsify it but of course if no

656
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:35,919
one makes the experiment to falsify it

657
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:38,240
and we're not going to falsify it no no

658
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:40,559
my my point is the experiment cannot

659
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:42,000
falsify it

660
00:23:46,310 --> 00:23:43,919
so sabine can you respond to this

661
00:23:49,350 --> 00:23:46,320
unfalsifiable claim of the model

662
00:23:50,470 --> 00:23:49,360
yeah i mean you you propose a model um

663
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:50,480
and then

664
00:23:54,149 --> 00:23:52,240
you make a prediction and if the

665
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:54,159
prediction isn't correct

666
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:56,960
then you falsified the model

667
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,480
that's not how it will work of course

668
00:24:04,470 --> 00:24:02,400
that's not how it will work yeah well

669
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:04,480
that's quite possibly the case

670
00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:06,640
i can explain how and why

671
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:08,960
you know if this is a general criticism

672
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:09,919
about

673
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,080
falsification we can have this argument

674
00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:14,000
you know we can argue that no theory has

675
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:16,000
ever actually been falsified if that's

676
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:17,760
what you want to say i would actually

677
00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:20,000
agree with this you know the ether has

678
00:24:23,669 --> 00:24:21,600
never really been falsified blah blah

679
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:23,679
blah blah as i've said a few times we

680
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:25,360
don't really falsify theories we

681
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:27,840
implausify them until people give uh

682
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:29,520
give up on them but i think that's kind

683
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:32,799
of a really um tangential point

684
00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:34,960
so can i elaborate on why i

685
00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:36,960
made that claim so let me

686
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:38,400
first we have to explain the experiment

687
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:40,720
a little bit so so people can follow the

688
00:24:44,789 --> 00:24:42,960
experiment is the following

689
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,799
since we do not know what the hidden

690
00:24:50,070 --> 00:24:47,279
variables are

691
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:50,080
we have to adopt certain procedures to

692
00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:51,919
minimize the chance that whatever they

693
00:24:56,149 --> 00:24:54,080
are their values can drift because the

694
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:56,159
experiment is based on the following

695
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,400
if you have a quantum system

696
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:00,480
and you make a series of measurements on

697
00:25:03,510 --> 00:25:01,919
that system

698
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:03,520
according to the bond rule of quantum

699
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,440
mechanics you have a certain statistical

700
00:25:09,350 --> 00:25:07,440
distribution of measurements that is not

701
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:09,360
deterministic

702
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,000
if super determinism is right if there

703
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:14,559
are these mysterious hidden variables

704
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:16,640
then the series of measurements will be

705
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,640
determined by the system's initial

706
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:20,000
condition

707
00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:21,360
so the experiment is based on the

708
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:22,799
following idea

709
00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:24,240
even if i don't know what the hidden

710
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,480
variables are and i cannot know how to

711
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:28,159
restore the initial conditions of the

712
00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:29,440
system because of course we need to

713
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:30,799
restore the initial condition of the

714
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:32,400
hidden variables too

715
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:34,799
even without knowing what they are

716
00:25:39,430 --> 00:25:37,360
if i cool down the system and i make a

717
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:39,440
fast series of measurements

718
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:41,760
stop and immediately do a next series of

719
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:43,679
measurements after returning the initial

720
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:45,520
conditions as best as i can

721
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:46,799
and then do the same thing and do

722
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:48,880
another series of measurements

723
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:51,120
if super determinism is right the series

724
00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:53,039
of measurements will all be determined

725
00:25:56,310 --> 00:25:54,640
by more or less the same initial

726
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:56,320
conditions if i do them in rapid

727
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:58,400
succession before the hidden variables

728
00:26:02,070 --> 00:26:01,120
have a chance to drift in volume and i

729
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:02,080
will find

730
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:04,400
time correlations between the series

731
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:06,240
which would then if that's the case

732
00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:08,480
contradict the bond rule

733
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:09,360
now

734
00:26:13,029 --> 00:26:11,360
because the whole thing is based on

735
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:13,039
having to do these series of

736
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:15,600
measurements in rapid succession but

737
00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:17,760
having enough measurements to find if

738
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,279
there is a correlation between the

739
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:21,200
series you end up in the following

740
00:26:24,789 --> 00:26:22,480
situation

741
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,799
if and when the experiment fails and

742
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:26,720
validates born rule

743
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:28,799
one can always say well

744
00:26:32,870 --> 00:26:30,880
i didn't make enough measurements per

745
00:26:35,350 --> 00:26:32,880
series so i don't know that they

746
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:35,360
correlate so it's inconclusive

747
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:37,760
well then you make more measurements per

748
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:39,039
series

749
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:42,480
takes longer to make so it will take

750
00:26:45,909 --> 00:26:44,080
longer for you to start the next series

751
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:45,919
and then one can say well it's just

752
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:48,799
because the initial state has drifted

753
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,200
i took too long to do the next series so

754
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,679
whatever happens one will always be able

755
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:55,360
to claim that the experiment is

756
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,080
inconclusive and doesn't falsify the

757
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:00,799
hidden variables why because it's so

758
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:02,720
loosely defined we are not saying what

759
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:05,200
the hidden variables are are and how

760
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:06,880
they work we are not seeing anything we

761
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:08,559
are just hoping that there is something

762
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:11,120
that somehow does what it needs to do

763
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:12,000
for

764
00:27:16,070 --> 00:27:14,480
this picture of nature this metaphysical

765
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:16,080
commitment the fit that physical

766
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:17,600
properties should have standalone

767
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:20,799
existence to survive

768
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:23,200
well two things first as i already said

769
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:24,799
earlier you're talking about the wrong

770
00:27:28,710 --> 00:27:26,000
experiment

771
00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:28,720
talk about

772
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,200
no you were talking about a change in

773
00:27:36,070 --> 00:27:33,600
the initial conditions i told you that

774
00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:36,080
the experiment you should be doing is

775
00:27:40,630 --> 00:27:37,760
repeated measurement of non-commuting

776
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:40,640
variables on the same state

777
00:27:46,630 --> 00:27:44,000
that alone is sufficient in the 2019

778
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,640
paper i was talking about a simplified

779
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:48,559
experiment i mentioned this in the test

780
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:49,840
text

781
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:51,919
and i can explain why

782
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,240
i have reason to think that this is

783
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:56,080
probably enough

784
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:57,279
but i'm not sure you're actually

785
00:28:03,669 --> 00:27:59,200
interested in hearing that

786
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:03,679
okay but oh i am okay good i'll tell you

787
00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:06,799
but so let me make a more general point

788
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:09,279
which is that you can't

789
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:10,799
falsify

790
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:12,880
super determinism i totally agree with

791
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:15,360
that because super determinism is not a

792
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:18,080
theory it's a property of a class of

793
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:19,679
theories

794
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:22,799
what you can falsify are specific models

795
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:24,640
and yes you are entirely right those

796
00:28:29,350 --> 00:28:27,039
models would have to specify what the

797
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,360
hidden variables are or at least what

798
00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:31,600
their properties are if you don't say

799
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:33,200
anything about it you can't make any

800
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:35,679
predictions

801
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:37,919
so what are the hidden variables

802
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:40,080
well that depends on your model you know

803
00:28:43,909 --> 00:28:41,840
that different models that people have

804
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:43,919
put forward i would say that at the

805
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,840
moment they're all unsatisfactory

806
00:28:51,669 --> 00:28:50,000
so according to your model to your model

807
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:51,679
what are the hidden variables in your

808
00:28:57,029 --> 00:28:52,960
model

809
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:57,039
complained about with the path integral

810
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,799
we explained this in the paper the

811
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:00,480
hidden verb

812
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,200
the hidden variables are the degrees of

813
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:05,360
freedom of the detector which are not

814
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:07,600
the measurement setting okay and now i

815
00:29:12,549 --> 00:29:09,600
can explain to you

816
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,559
why i think that makes sense because

817
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,000
i have a background as a particle

818
00:29:18,789 --> 00:29:16,559
physicist okay so i i don't like the

819
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:18,799
idea of introducing new degrees of

820
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:21,520
freedom and throw them over the already

821
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:23,279
existing elementary particles in the

822
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,399
standard model

823
00:29:27,269 --> 00:29:26,159
you know this whole problem you know i

824
00:29:29,750 --> 00:29:27,279
get the impression you have some

825
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:29,760
background in particular so this is not

826
00:29:32,389 --> 00:29:31,279
a good idea

827
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:32,399
however

828
00:29:37,990 --> 00:29:34,880
we know just empirically

829
00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:38,000
that the measurement setting

830
00:29:41,510 --> 00:29:39,120
affects

831
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:41,520
the average value of the distribution

832
00:29:46,389 --> 00:29:43,600
that's bounce rule okay so that's the

833
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:48,549
you mean like

834
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:51,279
like the angular momentum you set

835
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:52,799
to affect the distribution because

836
00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:53,919
everything will fall along the

837
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,600
eigenvalues of of the detector

838
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:59,360
basically yeah i mean i mean something

839
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,559
much more

840
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:02,480
simple if you want to calculate the

841
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,480
probability of a measurement outcome you

842
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:06,000
have to say what is the thing that you

843
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:07,919
measure right otherwise how are you

844
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,080
going to project it on the eigenstates

845
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:12,159
okay so so that's that but this brings

846
00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:13,760
up the question like what's with all the

847
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:15,840
other details of the detector what

848
00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:17,520
happened with them like a detector is

849
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:20,159
not just a measurement eyeing state it's

850
00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:23,200
a complicated big thing that has many

851
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,120
uh degrees of freedom

852
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:27,279
so um the model that i'm trying to

853
00:30:30,310 --> 00:30:28,799
develop which is the thing that you're

854
00:30:31,909 --> 00:30:30,320
complaining about with the quantum nurse

855
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,919
and that's that's the

856
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,840
you know that that's the

857
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,760
discussion in the paper where i say this

858
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:38,000
is the part which i haven't figured out

859
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:40,720
is exactly how those degrees of freedom

860
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:42,960
enter the evolutionary

861
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,960
but this is the idea so the degrees of

862
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:47,039
freedom of the detector

863
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:48,640
except for the for the measurement

864
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:52,000
setting itself are the hidden variables

865
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,440
and now once you buy this and i i i

866
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:56,880
agree with you that i don't actually

867
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,960
know exactly what the evolution or looks

868
00:31:02,389 --> 00:30:59,760
like

869
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:02,399
you can very precisely estimate how long

870
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:04,480
it will take i mean maybe not as

871
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:07,679
precisely as i'm hoping but in principle

872
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:09,120
you can estimate how long it would take

873
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:11,120
for them to change

874
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:13,760
and that's why i think the the simpler

875
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:16,240
estimated in 2090 papers probably

876
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:18,640
sufficient

877
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:21,440
okay i i i will work with you i'm not

878
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:24,000
i'm really not closed-minded about this

879
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,720
but

880
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:26,720
there are things about this that

881
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,000
normally would

882
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:30,240
trigger your worst part

883
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:32,880
and in this case it doesn't and and it

884
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:34,559
still triggers mine

885
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:36,480
um

886
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:39,279
however complex the experiment or the

887
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:41,919
the measurement apparatus is

888
00:31:45,110 --> 00:31:43,760
if we are talking about the local hidden

889
00:31:47,350 --> 00:31:45,120
variables

890
00:31:51,269 --> 00:31:47,360
what matters is

891
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,279
what the thing measured interacts with

892
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:54,000
the thing measured say you're looking at

893
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:57,200
spin of an elementary particle

894
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:59,440
the thing measure measured this timing

895
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:00,720
so it has

896
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:02,480
an interaction with a

897
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:04,559
tiny measurement surface

898
00:32:08,870 --> 00:32:06,559
of the same order of magnitude as an

899
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:08,880
elementary particle

900
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:11,039
everything else in the apparatus is

901
00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:13,760
about amplifying what's measured say

902
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:16,080
photo multipliers

903
00:32:19,269 --> 00:32:18,080
sending that signal and then displaying

904
00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:19,279
a way that is

905
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:22,159
cognitively amenable to a human being

906
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:24,480
but the measurement surface itself is

907
00:32:27,750 --> 00:32:26,000
tiny so

908
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:27,760
whatever is going on in the other

909
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:29,760
degrees of freedom of the measurement

910
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:31,840
apparatus

911
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:34,960
shouldn't have a local causal effect on

912
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,039
what happens on on the point of

913
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:39,440
interaction right

914
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:42,000
so i think we may just disagree on what

915
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,799
we mean by uh detection or measurement

916
00:32:48,789 --> 00:32:46,720
process um i would say that the

917
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:48,799
amplification actually is the

918
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:51,120
measurement like that's what what we

919
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,720
need to convert a teeny tiny thing like

920
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:56,080
single photon going through a beam

921
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:57,840
splitter into something that we can

922
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:00,240
actually read out and normally this

923
00:33:05,350 --> 00:33:03,120
process is described by decoherence

924
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:05,360
and that's also an interaction with with

925
00:33:10,549 --> 00:33:07,919
many particles now i actually do think

926
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:10,559
that this process of the coherence that

927
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,310
gone on about

928
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:19,430
captures

929
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:21,919
some part of the truth you know it tells

930
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,720
you how the environment selects the

931
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:26,399
pointer bases

932
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:29,360
but it doesn't tell you how the outcome

933
00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:32,159
of a measurement

934
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:34,480
is always a detector eigenstate in the

935
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:36,399
normal declarance paradigm you always

936
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:38,080
end up with a mixed state i mean

937
00:33:42,870 --> 00:33:40,399
generically unless the state happened to

938
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:42,880
be a detective state already and so what

939
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:46,080
what um super determinism does for you

940
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:47,840
what the violation of statistical

941
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:50,320
independence allows you to do is it

942
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:52,399
allows you to write down

943
00:33:57,990 --> 00:33:55,440
a local evolution law that will bring

944
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,000
the initial state into a detector

945
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,559
eigenstate

946
00:34:06,149 --> 00:34:03,840
i agree with what you often say that

947
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:06,159
this notion that super determinism

948
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:08,399
validates the whole of science

949
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:09,919
that's nonsensical

950
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,320
i agree with you there

951
00:34:16,470 --> 00:34:14,720
but what you just said that the

952
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:16,480
amplification

953
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:19,200
of the original measured signal

954
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,720
can determine the measure outcome

955
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:25,280
now that sounds spooky to me

956
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:26,720
because you're saying is that okay there

957
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:28,960
is there is an interaction between the

958
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:30,800
system measured and a measurement

959
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:33,200
surface which is tiny everything else is

960
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,040
just simplification and

961
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:37,440
transmission and displaying

962
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:39,119
the result of that measurement outcome

963
00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:40,960
but you say something

964
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:43,280
causally efficacious happens in that

965
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:45,280
chain of amplification

966
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:47,200
that actually

967
00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:49,599
determines the outcome of measurement

968
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:51,599
not the interaction on the measurement

969
00:34:56,389 --> 00:34:54,240
surface but the amplification of that

970
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:56,399
it's like the photo multipliers to give

971
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:58,800
me a different energy reading from my

972
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:00,640
tile calorimeter

973
00:35:04,150 --> 00:35:02,320
now if if that's the case then i have to

974
00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:04,160
throw away all my experiments because

975
00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:05,920
what i'm seeing is not the result of

976
00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:07,680
measurement it's something the detector

977
00:35:16,630 --> 00:35:14,630
how do you reconcile this now

978
00:35:18,630 --> 00:35:16,640
we have to assume that amplification

979
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,640
does not distort the result of

980
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:20,800
measurement so if you measured angular

981
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:23,760
momentum plus one in a certain direction

982
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,320
then then that is the reality of what's

983
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:29,119
measured and not something engendered

984
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,960
by the photo multipliers or whatever

985
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:32,880
whatever amplification system you used

986
00:35:37,109 --> 00:35:35,680
in your detector

987
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,119
yeah i'm not sure i understand the

988
00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:39,920
question like so i mean you measure some

989
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:42,160
variable you measure the spin you get a

990
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,000
probability distribution at the same as

991
00:35:48,630 --> 00:35:46,560
in quantum mechanics

992
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:48,640
okay so what those other degrees of

993
00:35:51,990 --> 00:35:50,800
freedom of the detector do for you is

994
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,000
that they

995
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,480
um decide

996
00:35:59,510 --> 00:35:56,800
which the outcome is

997
00:36:00,710 --> 00:35:59,520
so it doesn't they don't change the mean

998
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:00,720
value

999
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,359
the average bonds rule that's

1000
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,359
what you need the detector either states

1001
00:36:09,589 --> 00:36:07,440
for

1002
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:09,599
they just they're the random variables

1003
00:36:14,550 --> 00:36:12,720
that decide what what is the actual

1004
00:36:17,190 --> 00:36:14,560
outcome

1005
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,200
then i go back to my original point

1006
00:36:20,870 --> 00:36:19,440
how can all this complexity of the

1007
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:20,880
detector

1008
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:22,240
influence the measurement the

1009
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:24,079
measurement outcome if the actual

1010
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:27,599
measurement happens on a surface area of

1011
00:36:31,510 --> 00:36:29,760
the same order of magnitude as the

1012
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:31,520
elementary subatomic particle that is

1013
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:33,839
being measured

1014
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:35,680
well it just doesn't as i said i i don't

1015
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:37,680
know what so you think that an

1016
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,200
interaction with a single particle is

1017
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:40,800
the measurement

1018
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:43,119
no i'm saying it's not

1019
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:45,839
then whatever you're saying

1020
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:51,910
the the settings of the detector

1021
00:36:56,790 --> 00:36:54,480
determine the measurement outcome in

1022
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:56,800
other words the settings of the detector

1023
00:37:00,630 --> 00:36:58,960
change the thing that is measured the

1024
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:00,640
setting of the camera changes the moon

1025
00:37:03,910 --> 00:37:02,480
when i photograph the moon although i

1026
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,920
know it's a classical intuition you

1027
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:05,520
don't want to transfer it but

1028
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:07,520
essentially for people to follow us

1029
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,960
that's what you're saying

1030
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:10,880
the thing that is measured

1031
00:37:14,950 --> 00:37:11,920
changes

1032
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,960
depending on how i set up my detector

1033
00:37:19,750 --> 00:37:17,520
no the thing doesn't change

1034
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:19,760
as i as i said i i don't want to

1035
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,400
introduce any new degrees of freedom

1036
00:37:27,109 --> 00:37:24,720
so i think that i think the point where

1037
00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:27,119
people get confused is that they think

1038
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,200
the hidden variables

1039
00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:31,599
in burst theorem or really in all of

1040
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,960
those other theorems are properties of

1041
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,720
the prepared state they're kind of

1042
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,480
little additional degrees of freedom

1043
00:37:41,829 --> 00:37:39,839
that sit inside the particle or

1044
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,839
something and if that's how you

1045
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,000
interpret it then you arrive at this

1046
00:37:47,430 --> 00:37:45,920
weird conclusion that

1047
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:47,440
the measurement setting at the time of

1048
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:49,040
measurement changes something about the

1049
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:51,040
particle and actually must have changed

1050
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:52,560
it earlier

1051
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:55,040
but this is just not what the hidden

1052
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,280
variables in both theorem are

1053
00:38:01,670 --> 00:37:59,200
the hidden variables in bell's theorem

1054
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:01,680
are that what determines the outcome of

1055
00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:04,079
the measurement so if i only give you an

1056
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:06,560
initial state of a particle with

1057
00:38:10,470 --> 00:38:08,320
whatever variables there are if you want

1058
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:10,480
to add more or you just only take the

1059
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:12,880
normal ones that doesn't determine the

1060
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:16,560
outcome you also need the evolution law

1061
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:18,880
so what i'm saying and this is why i use

1062
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,359
this carefully phrased sentence in my

1063
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:24,160
video which you just threw out

1064
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:27,920
um that what the particle

1065
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:29,280
does

1066
00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:32,640
depends on what you measure okay and

1067
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,640
what this refers to what the particle

1068
00:38:38,390 --> 00:38:36,720
does concretely i'm referring to the

1069
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:38,400
evolution law

1070
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,640
so if you look at for example if you had

1071
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,960
looked at my toy model paper you would

1072
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:44,640
have seen that this is exactly what the

1073
00:38:47,109 --> 00:38:46,400
evolution law does

1074
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:47,119
the

1075
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,520
law

1076
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:53,040
so i have a quick note a quick note

1077
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:55,280
bernardo that may help so instead of

1078
00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:57,280
saying you're saying and so on say are

1079
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:58,720
you saying because this way we can find

1080
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:01,040
out if there's agreement no i'll go

1081
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:04,240
along with her terminology

1082
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,200
for the sake of the discussion

1083
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:09,119
what the particle does

1084
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:12,560
depends on the detectors settings

1085
00:39:18,790 --> 00:39:15,520
but the particle only interacts with a

1086
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:18,800
tiny measurement surface on the detector

1087
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:20,480
far away

1088
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:21,839
from

1089
00:39:27,030 --> 00:39:23,520
whatever else is going on in the

1090
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:29,510
how are we to reconcile i mean isn't

1091
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,400
that

1092
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:32,640
this is what you need for for

1093
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,720
to break statistical independence but

1094
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:36,960
it's like saying that there is

1095
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:39,760
a complex causal chain

1096
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:42,800
between the aperture and exposure

1097
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:45,599
settings of my camera and the moon

1098
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,320
so that what the moon does depends on

1099
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:50,560
the aperture and exposure i use on my

1100
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:54,240
camera when i'm photographing the moon

1101
00:39:58,470 --> 00:39:56,320
it's a very complex cause of chain

1102
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:58,480
because the interaction between the moon

1103
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:01,040
and my camera is just the photons from

1104
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:05,200
the moon hitting the sensor on my camera

1105
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:08,000
i think we are being asked to believe in

1106
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:11,040
in something very non-trivial

1107
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:13,520
even fantastical

1108
00:40:19,670 --> 00:40:16,160
if we do not have an account that tells

1109
00:40:22,069 --> 00:40:19,680
us precisely how this happens

1110
00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:22,079
why this is possible

1111
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:25,920
it stretches credulity uh sabine but

1112
00:40:31,829 --> 00:40:30,470
so

1113
00:40:33,589 --> 00:40:31,839
i think

1114
00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:33,599
we're not making any progress on this

1115
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:35,280
question on what you mean by the surface

1116
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:37,040
of the measurement i just don't know as

1117
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:38,960
i just said uh

1118
00:40:43,510 --> 00:40:41,200
even normally in the normal decoherence

1119
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:43,520
paradigm and so on a measurement is a

1120
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,240
process with a huge number of particles

1121
00:40:49,349 --> 00:40:47,599
you know we're talking of the order 10

1122
00:40:51,109 --> 00:40:49,359
to the 23 or something anything that

1123
00:40:54,230 --> 00:40:51,119
causes decoherence

1124
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:54,240
um so i'm not exactly sure where the

1125
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:56,720
where the disagreement is now you're

1126
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,319
asking

1127
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:00,160
exactly how does it work

1128
00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:02,720
do i have a theory no i already told you

1129
00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:03,760
um

1130
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:05,920
right this is exactly what i'm what i'm

1131
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:07,760
trying to develop i'm trying to figure

1132
00:41:10,950 --> 00:41:09,599
out exactly how to write down the

1133
00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:10,960
mathematics

1134
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:13,200
and also i should say that when you say

1135
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:15,119
that this is what it takes to break

1136
00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,800
statistical independence that's not true

1137
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:18,480
that's my particular model you know

1138
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:19,760
there are other people who are working

1139
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:21,280
on different model and they have

1140
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,480
different hidden variables and

1141
00:41:25,349 --> 00:41:24,240
completely different ideas

1142
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:25,359
so

1143
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:27,440
you know even if you don't like what

1144
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:28,960
i've been telling you because you think

1145
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:30,480
i'm crazy talking about the degrees of

1146
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:32,480
freedom of the detector which i think is

1147
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:37,430
to do

1148
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:39,599
then please don't also throw out all

1149
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:41,200
those other people's ideas because

1150
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:43,280
they're completely innocent

1151
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,040
no it's okay and there's nothing wrong

1152
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:46,960
with work in progress everything that

1153
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:49,200
has ever been created that's good and

1154
00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:51,359
useful and proven was once working

1155
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:52,480
progress there

1156
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:56,079
is nothing wrong with that whatsoever

1157
00:42:01,990 --> 00:41:58,640
i do feel that

1158
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:02,000
you are very early taking on a very

1159
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:03,200
strong

1160
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,640
very committed even combative position

1161
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:08,480
against almost the whole of the physics

1162
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:09,599
community

1163
00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:17,190
before you have something that is more

1164
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,440
substantiated i personally feel it

1165
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:22,319
doesn't do service to the cause to come

1166
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:25,520
out so strongly so combative before you

1167
00:42:28,630 --> 00:42:26,640
even know

1168
00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:28,640
you know within some

1169
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:30,240
with some degree of precision what

1170
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,680
you're talking about

1171
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:34,079
that i don't think is useful but

1172
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:35,920
early stage research

1173
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:38,000
that's what everything has to go through

1174
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:40,000
there is absolutely nothing wrong with

1175
00:42:43,910 --> 00:42:42,400
that now on the on the part of the

1176
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:43,920
coherence

1177
00:42:50,390 --> 00:42:46,240
in the video you put out like three days

1178
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:50,400
ago i think the 19th yeah three days ago

1179
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:52,240
which is a video addressing

1180
00:42:56,870 --> 00:42:54,240
some experimental results

1181
00:42:59,430 --> 00:42:56,880
that suggest that quantum mechanics is

1182
00:43:01,589 --> 00:42:59,440
right that the different observers can

1183
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:01,599
have different but

1184
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:03,839
true accounts of the same series of

1185
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,359
events that's a prediction of quantum

1186
00:43:10,150 --> 00:43:07,599
mechanics ravelli sort of

1187
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:10,160
elaborated vastly on this

1188
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:11,760
back in

1189
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:14,319
and these experiments using the the

1190
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,760
wigner's friend

1191
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:18,079
thought experiment uh seem to have

1192
00:43:23,589 --> 00:43:21,200
confirmed that um your criticism against

1193
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:23,599
that is that instead of

1194
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:25,599
witness human friends

1195
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:29,040
photons were used as observers

1196
00:43:34,150 --> 00:43:30,880
and your criticism was

1197
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:34,160
well a photon is not a valid observer

1198
00:43:38,069 --> 00:43:36,560
because a photon doesn't cause the

1199
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:38,079
coherence

1200
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:41,040
but you yourself has acknowledged like

1201
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,640
the fathers of the coherence that the

1202
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:44,800
coherence doesn't solve the measurement

1203
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:46,960
problem it's an operational useful rule

1204
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,160
of thumb

1205
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:51,040
uh but it it presupposes that which aims

1206
00:43:55,190 --> 00:43:53,760
to which it aims to explain which is the

1207
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:55,200
existence of a

1208
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:57,520
classical state around a quantum system

1209
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:59,200
in a superposition

1210
00:44:03,349 --> 00:44:01,440
into which the superposition information

1211
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:03,359
sort of can

1212
00:44:07,109 --> 00:44:05,520
speak metaphorically here so people can

1213
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:07,119
understand the information of the

1214
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:09,280
superposition can leak into that

1215
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:11,440
classical world around it and therefore

1216
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:14,000
in some sense become lost because it in

1217
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:16,480
some sense diluted in the state of of

1218
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,400
the surrounding environment

1219
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:20,880
but are if you discard a photon i mean

1220
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,680
we have detectors that are made up of

1221
00:44:26,790 --> 00:44:25,680
a small number of elementary particles

1222
00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:26,800
today

1223
00:44:30,950 --> 00:44:28,800
um and they are detectors i presume you

1224
00:44:32,790 --> 00:44:30,960
would acknowledge or or you have to give

1225
00:44:35,910 --> 00:44:32,800
a special place to human consciousness

1226
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:35,920
like wigner himself once tried to do

1227
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,760
so assuming that you don't do that that

1228
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:39,040
you're not saying no you have to have

1229
00:44:43,589 --> 00:44:41,839
human consciousness to be an observer

1230
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:43,599
i don't see why

1231
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:45,839
you would establish a distinction

1232
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,640
between a slightly more complex system

1233
00:44:53,109 --> 00:44:51,040
capable of the coherence in a photon i

1234
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,119
think both are valid observers and the

1235
00:44:56,550 --> 00:44:55,440
conclusions of those experiments are

1236
00:44:58,950 --> 00:44:56,560
valid

1237
00:45:02,829 --> 00:44:58,960
physical quantities are relational they

1238
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:04,710
absolute so

1239
00:45:07,829 --> 00:45:06,160
first of all you're throwing together

1240
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:07,839
various different things maybe let me

1241
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:09,440
start with the first thing you said you

1242
00:45:13,109 --> 00:45:12,000
were complaining that

1243
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:13,119
i'm very

1244
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,440
competitive or whatever so i have no

1245
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:18,960
idea honestly

1246
00:45:23,270 --> 00:45:20,720
why you would say that

1247
00:45:25,829 --> 00:45:23,280
i've written like three papers in 10

1248
00:45:27,430 --> 00:45:25,839
years if that's what you call combative

1249
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:27,440
i don't know what you want

1250
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,040
people are working on

1251
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:31,200
my video well my my

1252
00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:33,920
video is a summary

1253
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:36,560
well i i really i think i only made this

1254
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,119
one video about super determinism that's

1255
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:42,000
a summary in which i'm trying to weed

1256
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:44,720
out the most common misconceptions about

1257
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,960
super determinism it doesn't actually

1258
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:48,960
say anything particular about my own

1259
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:52,240
work i wouldn't do this in a video

1260
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:53,760
because most people wouldn't understand

1261
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:55,680
it anyway so i find this a little bit

1262
00:46:00,150 --> 00:45:57,280
weird that you

1263
00:46:02,470 --> 00:46:00,160
would be picking on this now um your

1264
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:02,480
other question you are asking about uh

1265
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:04,400
my video which came out this weekend in

1266
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,720
which i do not talk about super

1267
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,000
determinism now you seem to be

1268
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:11,119
criticizing me that i don't

1269
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,440
that's a little bit weird like i can't

1270
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,560
in in every video uh tell people what

1271
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:18,079
what's the exact thing that i'm working

1272
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:19,599
on at the moment and how this would

1273
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:21,119
affect this conclusion and so on this is

1274
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:21,839
just

1275
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:24,000
nobody would be interested in it

1276
00:46:28,790 --> 00:46:25,520
okay so

1277
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:28,800
it's correct that in this video i do not

1278
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:30,960
talk about how this would look like from

1279
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,560
the perspective of super determinism but

1280
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:34,319
i explained this in one of my papers if

1281
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:36,400
if you're interested i can

1282
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:37,760
continue the link to this which is

1283
00:46:41,430 --> 00:46:39,839
actually the reason why i was um looking

1284
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:41,440
at those papers to begin with i

1285
00:46:44,550 --> 00:46:42,880
appreciate it now

1286
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:44,560
coming to the coherence again i just

1287
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:45,839
don't know what you're talking about

1288
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:47,200
like if you have a look at any

1289
00:46:51,910 --> 00:46:50,160
decoherence formalism it always involves

1290
00:46:53,910 --> 00:46:51,920
an interaction with some kind of

1291
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:53,920
environment that has a lot of degrees of

1292
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:56,240
freedom and a single photon just isn't

1293
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,480
that environment that causes decoherence

1294
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:00,400
i mean what's supposed to cause the

1295
00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:02,319
decoherence

1296
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:04,480
my point is not that it should cause the

1297
00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:06,640
coherence my point is

1298
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:08,640
why should it cause the coherence in

1299
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:10,960
order to be a proper observer because we

1300
00:47:14,150 --> 00:47:12,960
have these interference experiments that

1301
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,160
give us information about the

1302
00:47:19,349 --> 00:47:16,480
superposition states so the photon

1303
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,359
doesn't need to decohere anything for us

1304
00:47:23,510 --> 00:47:21,280
to get information about what's going on

1305
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:23,520
which is exactly what the paper by

1306
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:26,319
priyati and others from from scotland

1307
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:29,040
did but in your video you'd say very

1308
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:32,000
explicitly the photon is not a proper

1309
00:47:36,549 --> 00:47:34,640
observer because it does not cause the

1310
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:36,559
coherence and my point is why should it

1311
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:38,800
need to cause the coherence we can do an

1312
00:47:44,470 --> 00:47:40,720
interference experiment and we can

1313
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,480
gather information without collapse

1314
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:46,160
while the photon is in a superposition

1315
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:48,160
state and i'm bringing this up in

1316
00:47:51,190 --> 00:47:49,520
relation to our previous discussion

1317
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,200
because it bears on what i perceive to

1318
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:53,359
be the same metaphysical commitment

1319
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,119
which is the commitment that physical

1320
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:57,520
properties have standalone existence and

1321
00:48:02,069 --> 00:47:59,760
therefore they are non-contextual they

1322
00:48:03,829 --> 00:48:02,079
are absolute they are not relational and

1323
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:03,839
it's the same topic that you addressed

1324
00:48:07,030 --> 00:48:05,440
in your latest video although under a

1325
00:48:09,589 --> 00:48:07,040
new name i don't mind that you bring

1326
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:09,599
super determinism into it my only qualm

1327
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:10,319
is

1328
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:11,200
why

1329
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:12,480
throw away

1330
00:48:16,069 --> 00:48:14,400
the entire experiment and the careful

1331
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:16,079
work that was done about it i mean you

1332
00:48:21,030 --> 00:48:18,319
end the video with a big red cross on

1333
00:48:23,030 --> 00:48:21,040
top of the paper saying it means nothing

1334
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:23,040
and you're doing that based solely on

1335
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:25,760
this notion that well it means nothing

1336
00:48:29,670 --> 00:48:27,440
because the photon is not a valid

1337
00:48:31,589 --> 00:48:29,680
observer but you know since the advent

1338
00:48:33,670 --> 00:48:31,599
of interference experiments we don't

1339
00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:33,680
need the coherence to have an

1340
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:36,000
experimental outcome why isn't the photo

1341
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:37,920
a valid observer why isn't the photo a

1342
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:40,640
good friend of wigner

1343
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:42,240
of course you can make

1344
00:48:49,109 --> 00:48:46,400
all kinds of measurement on photons but

1345
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:49,119
those measurements would never disagree

1346
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:51,040
with each other like

1347
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:53,760
quantum mechanics would just give you

1348
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,680
some answers you know that where the

1349
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:57,359
disagreement comes from between the

1350
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,319
different observers is that you disagree

1351
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,160
over exactly where the measurement

1352
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:04,480
happens

1353
00:49:08,069 --> 00:49:06,640
but the quantum mechanical theory

1354
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:08,079
quantum theory

1355
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:10,640
tells us that different observers can

1356
00:49:15,430 --> 00:49:13,280
provide equally true but different

1357
00:49:17,109 --> 00:49:15,440
accounts of the same sequence of events

1358
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:17,119
sequence of events

1359
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:18,559
right that's it

1360
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:21,119
we know that that's the math of it

1361
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:22,880
that's completely meaningless unless you

1362
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:28,710
an observer is a any system that

1363
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:31,040
interacts with with the thing observed

1364
00:49:36,630 --> 00:49:33,280
in a way that changes its state

1365
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:36,640
well i would disagree with that

1366
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:38,640
that i mean that's just in practice

1367
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:41,200
that's not how we make observations then

1368
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,319
what's an observer fundamentally

1369
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:46,720
well that's exactly the problem that i'm

1370
00:49:50,710 --> 00:49:48,400
trying to explain in my video quantum

1371
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:50,720
mechanics does not tell you what a

1372
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:53,200
measurement is so according to you what

1373
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:58,390
well i i think this this whole idea of

1374
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:00,319
the observer is kind of irrelevant as he

1375
00:50:03,349 --> 00:50:01,920
already said it kind of brings in this

1376
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,359
idea that consciousness has something to

1377
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:05,119
do with it um

1378
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:06,640
i think it's entirely sufficient when we

1379
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:09,280
talk about detectors uh and as i already

1380
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:12,720
said a detector is anything large enough

1381
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:16,319
to cause decoherence that does not mean

1382
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:18,880
that i say the coherence is sufficient

1383
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:21,280
to explain what happens in a measurement

1384
00:50:25,670 --> 00:50:23,599
i'm just saying that that's roughly the

1385
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:25,680
size at which you would reasonably call

1386
00:50:30,069 --> 00:50:27,680
the finger detector

1387
00:50:31,349 --> 00:50:30,079
but if i can do an interference

1388
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:31,359
experiment

1389
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:33,280
and gather information about the state

1390
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:36,079
of the photo entangled with whatever is

1391
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,480
being measured and i gather valid

1392
00:50:41,910 --> 00:50:40,079
accurate information about that

1393
00:50:43,750 --> 00:50:41,920
superposition state

1394
00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:43,760
why is that not a measurement why is the

1395
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:45,839
photon then not a detector

1396
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:47,839
didn't it cohere because you haven't you

1397
00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:49,520
haven't collapsed the wave function

1398
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:51,599
that's the whole point of a measurement

1399
00:50:56,710 --> 00:50:54,800
that you collapse the wave function

1400
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:56,720
but then interference experiments are

1401
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:58,800
invalid we should throw them away they

1402
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,200
don't provide valid information

1403
00:51:05,030 --> 00:51:03,200
about the superposition state i don't

1404
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:05,040
know why you would say that

1405
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,520
because the paper you were criticizing

1406
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:09,359
used an interference experiment to

1407
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:10,480
gather information about the

1408
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:12,240
superposition state and extract

1409
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,319
conclusions from that well sure you can

1410
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:16,480
do that i have absolutely no problem

1411
00:51:21,270 --> 00:51:19,440
with that you know this also i mean

1412
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:21,280
you make it sound like i have a problem

1413
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:24,559
with the experiment experiment is fine

1414
00:51:27,670 --> 00:51:26,000
you know i'm sure they they're great

1415
00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:27,680
people and they have a great laboratory

1416
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:30,240
and they're all nice people and and what

1417
00:51:34,230 --> 00:51:32,400
have you i'm just saying this experiment

1418
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:34,240
doesn't show that objective reality

1419
00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:36,000
doesn't exist the conclusions are

1420
00:51:39,030 --> 00:51:38,160
entirely unwarranted

1421
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:39,040
well

1422
00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:40,559
that's that's the science press

1423
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,640
objective reality doesn't exist exist oh

1424
00:51:46,150 --> 00:51:43,839
there's nonsense

1425
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,160
let's speak technically the experiment

1426
00:51:50,790 --> 00:51:48,160
suggests that physical quantities are

1427
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:50,800
indeed relational and contextual

1428
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:53,440
you seem to dismiss that conclusion

1429
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:55,680
no i have no problem with physical

1430
00:52:01,430 --> 00:51:58,480
quantities being relational or whatever

1431
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:01,440
also i mean if if i may say we were

1432
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:03,119
trying to talk about super determinism

1433
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:05,280
and now we've we've drifted off to you

1434
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:07,599
trying to criticize a video that i put

1435
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:13,270
okay what other question regarding super

1436
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:15,200
determinism do you have bernardo for

1437
00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,559
sabina

1438
00:52:23,510 --> 00:52:19,280
i don't want to get too much uh air time

1439
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:23,520
i have um my little notes uh here

1440
00:52:29,670 --> 00:52:27,750
okay perhaps we'll take an audience

1441
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:29,680
question about super determinism i mean

1442
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:30,720
unless you

1443
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:32,240
have one ready because it'll take a

1444
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:33,359
while for the audience to see this is a

1445
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,040
bit of a delay

1446
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:39,030
i think i made most of the points i

1447
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:40,800
wanted to make sabine you have a

1448
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:42,400
question for bernardo

1449
00:52:48,069 --> 00:52:43,359
well

1450
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,910
curious why people are so opposed to

1451
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:54,000
violating statistical independence like

1452
00:52:56,950 --> 00:52:56,160
this entire story about the moon and so

1453
00:52:59,589 --> 00:52:56,960
on

1454
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:59,599
i think you are aware

1455
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:00,800
that

1456
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:03,760
this is using a macroscopic

1457
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:05,440
comparison

1458
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:06,720
for

1459
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,280
something we only ever observe in a

1460
00:53:12,790 --> 00:53:11,119
quantum experiment right so of course it

1461
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:12,800
sounds completely crazy

1462
00:53:17,430 --> 00:53:15,680
right so so i don't really know why

1463
00:53:20,069 --> 00:53:17,440
people are

1464
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:20,079
so willing to throw out this option of

1465
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:22,160
violating statistical independence i i

1466
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:24,480
really don't get it

1467
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:27,599
i i don't think it should be thrown out

1468
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:28,559
but

1469
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:31,839
to come out strongly and say

1470
00:53:37,030 --> 00:53:34,480
it has to be thrown out because reality

1471
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,040
is that statistical independence doesn't

1472
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:39,680
hold i think that's a very very strong

1473
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,079
statement and it shouldn't be made

1474
00:53:45,829 --> 00:53:44,240
lightly because statistical independence

1475
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:45,839
is something we have learned throughout

1476
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:48,720
the history of science is applicable

1477
00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:51,440
uh and to now suddenly depart from that

1478
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:53,680
there has to be a very good rationale

1479
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:56,079
for that very very well substantiated

1480
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:57,680
there's nothing wrong in being in a

1481
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:00,240
minority position i am in a minority

1482
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:02,720
position all the time i know very well

1483
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:05,040
what that feels like but it's important

1484
00:54:10,069 --> 00:54:08,079
to be able to substantiate very well why

1485
00:54:11,589 --> 00:54:10,079
we are taking that minority position and

1486
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:11,599
saying that everybody else is wrong i

1487
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,280
mean

1488
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,359
i didn't want to to pick on you when i

1489
00:54:19,670 --> 00:54:17,599
said that that you were coming out

1490
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:19,680
coming across very combatively it was

1491
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:21,599
just as part of your video you knew to

1492
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:24,319
say that all those old male physicists

1493
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:25,599
don't have a clue what they're talking

1494
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:27,760
about something of that tone which i

1495
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:30,319
like i like that tone but i think you're

1496
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:32,079
exposing yourself now in this but in

1497
00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:34,079
this specific area of your work where

1498
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,440
it's so early

1499
00:54:39,910 --> 00:54:37,359
but uh you know keep in mind you're

1500
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:39,920
you're going against practically the

1501
00:54:45,589 --> 00:54:42,720
entire physics community here

1502
00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:45,599
um and you're going very strongly after

1503
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:46,400
them

1504
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,520
and

1505
00:54:52,549 --> 00:54:49,839
in you're doing that before you have

1506
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:52,559
even the outline of a theory that can be

1507
00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:53,920
defined and you're asking people to

1508
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:55,040
throw away

1509
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:56,960
learnings you call them we call them

1510
00:55:00,789 --> 00:54:59,119
assumptions i call them learnings that

1511
00:55:01,670 --> 00:55:00,799
we have accumulated over hundreds of

1512
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:01,680
years

1513
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:03,839
and and i sense that you're doing that

1514
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,440
because of a metaphysical commitment

1515
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:07,200
which is the very thing you are on a

1516
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,200
crusade against thank goodness you are

1517
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:11,599
in a crusade against that and i'm with

1518
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:13,680
you on that crusade and i feel slightly

1519
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:15,680
betrayed

1520
00:55:19,829 --> 00:55:18,559
with your talk of hidden variables

1521
00:55:22,309 --> 00:55:19,839
i don't know where you're talking about

1522
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:22,319
my metaphysical commitments i as i tried

1523
00:55:30,069 --> 00:55:28,069
i i don't know why you were

1524
00:55:31,829 --> 00:55:30,079
now rotating back to physical realism

1525
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:31,839
when i told you in the very beginning

1526
00:55:37,270 --> 00:55:35,200
that my problem is

1527
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,280
that non-locality

1528
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,280
is not in the measurement collapse it's

1529
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:41,280
not compatible with general relativity

1530
00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:43,760
i'm trying to solve a

1531
00:55:48,549 --> 00:55:45,839
mathematical problem

1532
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:48,559
and that's the only solution

1533
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:50,720
that i think works

1534
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:53,440
and now all you you talk about why i'm

1535
00:55:58,710 --> 00:55:56,799
so combative uh and so on and so forth

1536
00:56:00,390 --> 00:55:58,720
i don't really know why why

1537
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:00,400
where this conversation is going it

1538
00:56:03,510 --> 00:56:02,240
doesn't really make a lot of sense to me

1539
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,520
what is the disagreement bernardo

1540
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:05,280
besides the strength which or at least

1541
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:06,799
perceives strength at which sabino puts

1542
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,640
out a position because to me that's an

1543
00:56:12,230 --> 00:56:10,640
ad hominem from my perspective do you

1544
00:56:13,910 --> 00:56:12,240
have an argument about the argument

1545
00:56:16,069 --> 00:56:13,920
itself

1546
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:16,079
i think hidden variables at this stage

1547
00:56:20,870 --> 00:56:18,240
are fantasy and we have absolutely no

1548
00:56:21,750 --> 00:56:20,880
experimental reason to entertain them or

1549
00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:21,760
to

1550
00:56:29,349 --> 00:56:26,640
statistical independence which has held

1551
00:56:30,630 --> 00:56:29,359
for 400 years of science literally

1552
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:30,640
everywhere

1553
00:56:35,109 --> 00:56:32,880
we do not have a good empirical reason

1554
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:35,119
to depart from that or a good empirical

1555
00:56:40,549 --> 00:56:37,440
reason to postulate hidden fantastical

1556
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:40,559
entities that that that are completely

1557
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:42,640
counterintuitive and for which we do not

1558
00:56:45,670 --> 00:56:44,640
have even an explicit theoretical

1559
00:56:48,549 --> 00:56:45,680
account

1560
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:48,559
so i think the whole thing is a fantasy

1561
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:52,160
that departs from empirical rigor

1562
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:53,920
you know well i could likewise say that

1563
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:55,680
it's completely insane to throw out

1564
00:56:59,270 --> 00:56:57,760
locality which has been historically

1565
00:57:01,910 --> 00:56:59,280
dramatically

1566
00:57:02,789 --> 00:57:01,920
uh successful

1567
00:57:05,349 --> 00:57:02,799
right

1568
00:57:07,030 --> 00:57:05,359
and also i mean about this you you're

1569
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:07,040
talking about statistical independence

1570
00:57:12,710 --> 00:57:08,960
again you're using a notion of

1571
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:12,720
statistical independence that we use in

1572
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,119
statistical mechanics and so on which

1573
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:17,599
just has nothing to do with this notion

1574
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,440
of statistical independence that enters

1575
00:57:23,190 --> 00:57:21,440
spells theorem i don't even know why

1576
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:23,200
people think they they are the same

1577
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:24,000
thing

1578
00:57:30,230 --> 00:57:28,319
or maybe people get confused about why

1579
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,240
that it just that it's called

1580
00:57:34,150 --> 00:57:32,480
statistical independence i mean we

1581
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:34,160
already noticed when we were talking

1582
00:57:37,750 --> 00:57:36,079
about what it actually means to violate

1583
00:57:39,510 --> 00:57:37,760
statistical independence that you don't

1584
00:57:41,109 --> 00:57:39,520
even know what it means

1585
00:57:42,549 --> 00:57:41,119
you know right people write down this

1586
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,559
equation they don't know what the hidden

1587
00:57:46,950 --> 00:57:44,720
variables are they they confuse

1588
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,960
causation with correlation and then they

1589
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:48,640
come to all these weird conclusions

1590
00:57:52,390 --> 00:57:50,160
about there having to be some kind of

1591
00:57:55,589 --> 00:57:52,400
conspiracy and so on and so forth now

1592
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:55,599
look i'm a maths person okay so i work

1593
00:58:00,710 --> 00:57:58,240
with equations so all this kind of stuff

1594
00:58:03,510 --> 00:58:00,720
it goes right past me

1595
00:58:04,870 --> 00:58:03,520
what i want to know is can i write down

1596
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:04,880
a theory

1597
00:58:09,510 --> 00:58:07,359
that's internally consistent i will

1598
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:09,520
actually make predictions and now you're

1599
00:58:13,990 --> 00:58:12,160
asking you know why am i

1600
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,000
saying something about it if i don't

1601
00:58:17,670 --> 00:58:16,160
have a full theory well that's actually

1602
00:58:19,750 --> 00:58:17,680
a good question and

1603
00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:19,760
maybe i should spend a minute trying to

1604
00:58:24,309 --> 00:58:22,160
answer it it's because i've seen from

1605
00:58:27,190 --> 00:58:24,319
what's happened in quantum gravity and

1606
00:58:30,470 --> 00:58:27,200
also in particle physics that this idea

1607
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:30,480
to formulate a full theory that is

1608
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:33,040
mathematically consistent mathematically

1609
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:35,119
consistent and then you go and test it

1610
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:36,880
just doesn't work

1611
00:58:41,589 --> 00:58:40,000
you need experimental guidance and so

1612
00:58:45,030 --> 00:58:41,599
trying to fumble together all the

1613
00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:45,040
details without any kind of experimental

1614
00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:47,280
evidence that you can use to build the

1615
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:50,240
theory just isn't going to work and this

1616
00:58:54,430 --> 00:58:52,720
is why i've been going around for 12

1617
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,440
years trying to convince

1618
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:56,880
experimentalists to please stop doing

1619
00:59:01,270 --> 00:58:59,280
always the same belt type tests which

1620
00:59:04,789 --> 00:59:01,280
will always give the same result but we

1621
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:04,799
already know this please do some other

1622
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:07,920
experiment that could reveal some

1623
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:09,920
evidence for those hidden variables and

1624
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,680
i'm i'm very frustrated that no one

1625
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:13,200
wants to touch it because everyone's

1626
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:15,280
like oh super determinism oh right that

1627
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:16,640
was this weird thing where you have to

1628
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:18,400
throw out free will right so they're

1629
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:20,319
afraid to touch it

1630
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:22,720
i i i agree with you but i sympathize

1631
00:59:25,910 --> 00:59:23,760
with them

1632
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:25,920
you have to propose a minimally precise

1633
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,400
experiment what you have proposed so far

1634
00:59:31,750 --> 00:59:30,400
is so vague

1635
00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:31,760
you don't know what you're controlling

1636
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:32,480
for

1637
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:34,960
you don't know what the thresholds are

1638
00:59:40,950 --> 00:59:37,760
like bell's theorem right that's also

1639
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:40,960
terribly vague no it's very precise this

1640
00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:43,680
statistic very precise well has bell

1641
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:45,599
told you what the hidden variables are

1642
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:48,960
in his theory no he hasn't right

1643
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:51,280
but i have to do it

1644
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:53,920
he said what exactly is the statistical

1645
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:56,000
measurement the ensemble measurement

1646
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:58,880
that you would expect in case the hidden

1647
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:00,559
variable local hidden variables are the

1648
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:02,880
case and the difference with what

1649
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,200
quantum mechanics predicts so the

1650
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:07,440
experimentalist knows exactly what to

1651
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:10,640
measure under what conditions and how to

1652
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:12,880
how to interpret the measurement but if

1653
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:15,599
we if you're told well you have to cool

1654
01:00:19,190 --> 01:00:17,200
the detector down when you have to

1655
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:19,200
reduce the degrees of fear freedom of

1656
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:21,280
the detector and you have to make enough

1657
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:22,960
measurements in rapid succession

1658
01:00:26,870 --> 01:00:25,760
experimentally experimentalist will ask

1659
01:00:29,910 --> 01:00:26,880
how cool

1660
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,920
how rapid is rapid enough what exactly

1661
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,760
do i need to measurement and what

1662
01:00:35,750 --> 01:00:33,520
exactly are the degrees of freedom that

1663
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:35,760
i'm allowed to have if there aren't

1664
01:00:38,549 --> 01:00:37,520
answers to that question then it's you

1665
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:38,559
know

1666
01:00:42,069 --> 01:00:40,400
but i do have answers to this question

1667
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:42,079
in the paper that you didn't read from

1668
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,319
2011 i've now said this a few times

1669
01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:45,920
there are numbers in the paper i've

1670
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:48,240
actually counted the degrees of freedom

1671
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:49,920
i've estimated the temperature and the

1672
01:00:53,190 --> 01:00:51,760
size of the thing and how quickly you

1673
01:00:54,870 --> 01:00:53,200
have to repeat the measurements and so

1674
01:00:57,349 --> 01:00:54,880
on

1675
01:00:59,990 --> 01:00:57,359
in the 2019 or 2020 paper it was not

1676
01:01:01,990 --> 01:01:00,000
there that's right because i've already

1677
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:02,000
published this in an earlier paper you

1678
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:04,880
know i don't like to plagiarize myself

1679
01:01:08,230 --> 01:01:06,559
and maybe i'm a little bit old-fashioned

1680
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:08,240
but there's a reference in the paper

1681
01:01:13,270 --> 01:01:10,559
which uh to the earlier paper where you

1682
01:01:15,430 --> 01:01:13,280
can look up the numbers

1683
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:15,440
maybe the experimentalists are also only

1684
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,359
looking at your latest papers and they

1685
01:01:21,109 --> 01:01:18,960
are extracting the same conclusions i

1686
01:01:23,030 --> 01:01:21,119
did which is throw your hands up and say

1687
01:01:26,309 --> 01:01:23,040
what can i do well actually i'm actually

1688
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:26,319
in in touch with um at least three

1689
01:01:31,349 --> 01:01:29,280
experimentalists um who have different

1690
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:31,359
ideas of how to go about it so i'm not

1691
01:01:34,230 --> 01:01:32,640
completely

1692
01:01:36,789 --> 01:01:34,240
hopeless at this point that maybe it

1693
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:36,799
will happen within my lifetime

1694
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:38,799
okay let's get to an audience question

1695
01:01:43,349 --> 01:01:41,359
this question comes from gastronic it

1696
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:43,359
may help me referring to gastronic

1697
01:01:47,109 --> 01:01:44,640
understand the discussion of super

1698
01:01:49,190 --> 01:01:47,119
determinism better if it is clear and

1699
01:01:50,549 --> 01:01:49,200
i'll you already outlined this sabine

1700
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:50,559
but perhaps it can be outlined again

1701
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:51,760
what is meant by the definition of

1702
01:01:55,589 --> 01:01:53,760
looking slash not looking at and or

1703
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:55,599
measuring slash not measuring in the

1704
01:02:00,710 --> 01:01:57,280
context of the double slit experiment

1705
01:02:05,829 --> 01:02:02,710
well as i already said you know

1706
01:02:08,470 --> 01:02:05,839
in my mind a measurement is an

1707
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:08,480
interaction with an apparatus that can

1708
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:09,920
amplify

1709
01:02:15,349 --> 01:02:12,559
a small signal and that apparatus has to

1710
01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:15,359
be large enough to cause

1711
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:17,680
decoherence but i don't think that the

1712
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:20,799
decoherence is sufficient to actually

1713
01:02:24,870 --> 01:02:22,960
describe the measurement process this is

1714
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:24,880
what you need super determinant for i

1715
01:02:28,230 --> 01:02:26,799
hope this helps

1716
01:02:30,789 --> 01:02:28,240
this question is to both of you comes

1717
01:02:32,870 --> 01:02:30,799
from salvatore pais

1718
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:32,880
salvatore pius wants to know this isn't

1719
01:02:37,029 --> 01:02:34,799
specifically about super determinism but

1720
01:02:38,309 --> 01:02:37,039
salvator pius asks if

1721
01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:38,319
you all believe that there could be a

1722
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:40,480
super force a force of unification for

1723
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:41,680
all forces

1724
01:02:44,630 --> 01:02:42,559
that

1725
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:44,640
and just so you know sal wrote down sal

1726
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,480
believes that this super force quote

1727
01:02:50,390 --> 01:02:48,480
unquote exists at all points in space

1728
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,400
and time at planck scales and is equal

1729
01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:52,240
to the planck unit of force namely c to

1730
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:54,319
the four divided by g

1731
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:56,319
which in his mind has shown that the

1732
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:58,079
strong nuclear force equals the force of

1733
01:03:02,309 --> 01:03:00,559
gravity which equals the super force so

1734
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:02,319
what is your take on this what is your

1735
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,720
opinion on this salvatore pius wants to

1736
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:06,319
know

1737
01:03:10,230 --> 01:03:07,839
bernardo do you have any

1738
01:03:13,349 --> 01:03:10,240
thoughts on that

1739
01:03:15,589 --> 01:03:13,359
and then sources are our models um

1740
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:15,599
if you don't want to talk about a

1741
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:17,440
talk about forces you talk about force

1742
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:19,520
carrying particles and if you don't want

1743
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:21,119
to talk about particles you talk about

1744
01:03:26,470 --> 01:03:23,920
field excitations these are models the

1745
01:03:27,990 --> 01:03:26,480
question boiled down boils down to

1746
01:03:29,670 --> 01:03:28,000
do i think we

1747
01:03:31,990 --> 01:03:29,680
will one day

1748
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:32,000
get to

1749
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:34,079
a unification theory

1750
01:03:37,750 --> 01:03:35,280
that

1751
01:03:40,390 --> 01:03:37,760
brings gravity into the fold of what is

1752
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:40,400
today known as one of the 17 quantum

1753
01:03:43,430 --> 01:03:41,359
fields

1754
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:43,440
do i think a grand unification will be

1755
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:45,520
possible yes i think i think it will be

1756
01:03:48,390 --> 01:03:46,640
possible

1757
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:48,400
it may not go along the lines of m

1758
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,720
theory maybe it goes along the lines of

1759
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:52,559
loop quantum gravity

1760
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:55,119
but i think ultimately i think nature is

1761
01:03:58,870 --> 01:03:57,760
screaming to us that whether we know it

1762
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:58,880
or not

1763
01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:01,440
there is such a thing nature behaves in

1764
01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:02,960
a unified way

1765
01:04:08,069 --> 01:04:05,440
um such that there are no building

1766
01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:08,079
contradictory contradictions in nature

1767
01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,160
so yes i think eventually something like

1768
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:12,480
this will be possible

1769
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:13,920
sabine do you have any opinions on

1770
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:16,559
salvator pisces question

1771
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:18,880
no i'd rather not uh

1772
01:04:25,510 --> 01:04:19,920
um

1773
01:04:26,789 --> 01:04:25,520
speaking

1774
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:26,799
we know that

1775
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:28,319
nature

1776
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:30,799
has never shown any internal

1777
01:04:35,270 --> 01:04:33,520
uh inconsistency so at least when it

1778
01:04:37,829 --> 01:04:35,280
comes to the

1779
01:04:39,349 --> 01:04:37,839
problem of combining quantum theory with

1780
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,359
general relativity there has to be a

1781
01:04:43,910 --> 01:04:42,000
solution to this um now as i have

1782
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:43,920
probably made clear i think that super

1783
01:04:48,230 --> 01:04:46,559
determinism is a part of the answer now

1784
01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:48,240
when it comes to the unification of the

1785
01:04:52,230 --> 01:04:50,160
other interactions i'm i'm not that sure

1786
01:04:54,309 --> 01:04:52,240
i'm not sure we actually need it may or

1787
01:04:57,349 --> 01:04:54,319
may not work out in the end well i know

1788
01:04:59,349 --> 01:04:57,359
you both have to get going so thank you

1789
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:59,359
all for being here thank you sabine

1790
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:00,960
thank you bernardo for spending some

1791
01:05:05,670 --> 01:05:03,280
time with myself and with the audience

1792
01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:05,680
and perhaps we can go through that 2011

1793
01:05:09,190 --> 01:05:07,359
paper at some point in the future and

1794
01:05:12,069 --> 01:05:09,200
have a more

1795
01:05:14,470 --> 01:05:12,079
specific and constructive conversation

1796
01:05:16,630 --> 01:05:14,480
thank you so much

1797
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:16,640
okay thank you guys

1798
01:05:19,349 --> 01:05:17,680
thank you

1799
01:05:21,430 --> 01:05:19,359
it was at this point that sabine had to

1800
01:05:23,510 --> 01:05:21,440
leave and so bernardo stayed behind to

1801
01:05:25,349 --> 01:05:23,520
take some audience questions one-on-one

1802
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:25,359
okay radcapsul says

1803
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:27,440
without thought there is no science if

1804
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:29,440
one wants to apply reason and logic as

1805
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:31,280
the scientific method requires one has

1806
01:05:35,270 --> 01:05:33,520
to first have one has to first know what

1807
01:05:37,510 --> 01:05:35,280
thoughts are and where they originate do

1808
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:37,520
you agree

1809
01:05:41,589 --> 01:05:38,960
absolutely

1810
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:41,599
and that's one of

1811
01:05:47,029 --> 01:05:44,240
the weakest links um

1812
01:05:49,670 --> 01:05:47,039
in in our epistemology today and how we

1813
01:05:51,029 --> 01:05:49,680
deal with our own knowledge

1814
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:51,039
we are

1815
01:05:56,470 --> 01:05:54,160
will miserably lack insight

1816
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:56,480
into the thinker

1817
01:06:01,109 --> 01:05:58,720
and we think that thoughts

1818
01:06:02,789 --> 01:06:01,119
are objective entities that have a

1819
01:06:05,589 --> 01:06:02,799
reality of their own

1820
01:06:07,430 --> 01:06:05,599
um independence of the thinker

1821
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:07,440
and the thinkers hidden assumptions and

1822
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:09,599
prejudices and commitments

1823
01:06:15,029 --> 01:06:12,640
and so on and so forth

1824
01:06:16,630 --> 01:06:15,039
gemson says what evidence or reason do

1825
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:16,640
you have for meaning that consciousness

1826
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:18,720
is not evolving

1827
01:06:23,589 --> 01:06:19,920
is not what

1828
01:06:26,309 --> 01:06:24,470
um

1829
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:26,319
i think the contents of consciousness

1830
01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:27,599
are evolving

1831
01:06:34,950 --> 01:06:33,839
i think not so long ago not so long ago

1832
01:06:36,069 --> 01:06:34,960
there was

1833
01:06:39,349 --> 01:06:36,079
no

1834
01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:39,359
capacity for metacognition in nature

1835
01:06:43,910 --> 01:06:42,160
sorry it's my allergy

1836
01:06:45,750 --> 01:06:43,920
so the contents of consciousness are

1837
01:06:47,589 --> 01:06:45,760
evolving there are more insights there

1838
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:47,599
is more understanding we

1839
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:49,440
we have a better grip

1840
01:06:54,789 --> 01:06:52,559
on what's going on um we're still very

1841
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:54,799
very far away from

1842
01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:56,720
a complete understanding of what's going

1843
01:07:01,190 --> 01:06:59,039
on i think we still make many many many

1844
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:01,200
mistakes there are a great number of

1845
01:07:04,069 --> 01:07:03,200
things we take for granted that are not

1846
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:04,079
true

1847
01:07:08,470 --> 01:07:05,760
i think we would be tremendously

1848
01:07:11,589 --> 01:07:08,480
surprised by the depth of our ignorance

1849
01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:11,599
if suddenly we became aware of it

1850
01:07:17,589 --> 01:07:14,880
but steps are being made we are not

1851
01:07:19,270 --> 01:07:17,599
where we were in the middle ages we have

1852
01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:19,280
advanced and

1853
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,920
we've identified some common pitfalls

1854
01:07:25,829 --> 01:07:23,599
and we don't fall in those anymore we

1855
01:07:30,309 --> 01:07:25,839
fall in others still but at least in

1856
01:07:34,789 --> 01:07:32,870
man in blackened woods says question for

1857
01:07:40,230 --> 01:07:34,799
bernardo can you envision a way in which

1858
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:43,349
if one would prove

1859
01:07:46,549 --> 01:07:44,640
that um

1860
01:07:48,630 --> 01:07:46,559
what we call physical entities which are

1861
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:48,640
entirely defined by physical quantities

1862
01:07:54,309 --> 01:07:52,240
like mass charge momentum so so forth

1863
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:54,319
if one could prove

1864
01:08:00,069 --> 01:07:56,559
that those have

1865
01:08:02,390 --> 01:08:00,079
a objective and stand-alone reality

1866
01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:02,400
irrespective of

1867
01:08:07,349 --> 01:08:06,160
the observational context

1868
01:08:09,270 --> 01:08:07,359
that would

1869
01:08:11,670 --> 01:08:09,280
go some way

1870
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,680
into indicating that idealism is

1871
01:08:16,870 --> 01:08:14,000
implausible

1872
01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:16,880
it might also go some way in indicating

1873
01:08:21,590 --> 01:08:18,640
that a great many things about cognitive

1874
01:08:25,269 --> 01:08:21,600
psychology are implausible as well

1875
01:08:27,269 --> 01:08:25,279
and some aspects of our colloquial

1876
01:08:28,309 --> 01:08:27,279
materialist understanding of the world

1877
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:28,319
as well

1878
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,600
so that that would be um one way

1879
01:08:35,189 --> 01:08:33,679
and as it turns out for the last 40

1880
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:35,199
years and that was a discussion we had

1881
01:08:39,669 --> 01:08:38,480
today precisely the opposite is is what

1882
01:08:42,950 --> 01:08:39,679
is emerging

1883
01:08:44,309 --> 01:08:42,960
uh unless you give up on statistical

1884
01:08:45,430 --> 01:08:44,319
independence

1885
01:08:50,070 --> 01:08:45,440
and you

1886
01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:50,080
how to say i want to use a word that

1887
01:08:58,229 --> 01:08:55,600
isn't disparaging and you take on board

1888
01:09:00,149 --> 01:08:58,239
the possibility that

1889
01:09:02,070 --> 01:09:00,159
the settings of the camera change what

1890
01:09:04,070 --> 01:09:02,080
the moon is or does

1891
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:04,080
if you take that on board

1892
01:09:08,309 --> 01:09:06,560
then yes you can say well

1893
01:09:10,470 --> 01:09:08,319
physical realism the standalone

1894
01:09:12,709 --> 01:09:10,480
existence of physical entities has

1895
01:09:15,829 --> 01:09:12,719
survived these experiments

1896
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:15,839
but you pay a very big price for it you

1897
01:09:20,229 --> 01:09:18,000
you have to part with something that has

1898
01:09:21,669 --> 01:09:20,239
been reliable for the entire history of

1899
01:09:23,749 --> 01:09:21,679
science

1900
01:09:24,870 --> 01:09:23,759
which is statistical independence or you

1901
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,880
have to

1902
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:27,279
take on board the notion that there are

1903
01:09:30,309 --> 01:09:29,279
countless real

1904
01:09:32,149 --> 01:09:30,319
physical

1905
01:09:34,070 --> 01:09:32,159
parallel universes

1906
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:34,080
countless popping out every

1907
01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:36,319
infinitesimal fraction of a six second

1908
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:38,000
out of nowhere for no reason for which

1909
01:09:41,510 --> 01:09:39,679
we have absolutely zero empirical

1910
01:09:44,709 --> 01:09:41,520
evidence that's another way to get out

1911
01:09:46,950 --> 01:09:44,719
of it so ultimately it gets down to a

1912
01:09:47,829 --> 01:09:46,960
context of plausibility

1913
01:09:50,229 --> 01:09:47,839
you know

1914
01:09:52,309 --> 01:09:50,239
and sabino zavina was correct today that

1915
01:09:54,709 --> 01:09:52,319
science is about

1916
01:09:57,270 --> 01:09:54,719
what can be rendered

1917
01:09:59,430 --> 01:09:57,280
most implausible or at least implausible

1918
01:10:01,030 --> 01:09:59,440
because you know whatever data you come

1919
01:10:03,590 --> 01:10:01,040
to me with

1920
01:10:05,189 --> 01:10:03,600
i can always say well it's the hidden

1921
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:05,199
flying spaghetti monster that

1922
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:07,120
manipulated the physical world from

1923
01:10:11,030 --> 01:10:08,960
behind the curtains you know i cannot

1924
01:10:13,510 --> 01:10:11,040
disprove that hypothesis

1925
01:10:15,430 --> 01:10:13,520
but it's very implausible and i think on

1926
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:15,440
that same account

1927
01:10:20,550 --> 01:10:18,960
parting with a statistical independence

1928
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:20,560
in the name of

1929
01:10:24,390 --> 01:10:22,800
hidden variables for which we have no

1930
01:10:26,390 --> 01:10:24,400
empirical evidence

1931
01:10:29,030 --> 01:10:26,400
is implausible and

1932
01:10:30,229 --> 01:10:29,040
multi-universe is popping out from out

1933
01:10:32,310 --> 01:10:30,239
of nowhere for no reason every

1934
01:10:33,669 --> 01:10:32,320
infinitesimal fraction of a second is

1935
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:33,679
implausible

1936
01:10:38,709 --> 01:10:35,920
and what remains on the table is very

1937
01:10:40,550 --> 01:10:38,719
very very plausible completely intuitive

1938
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:40,560
physical entities are the outcome of

1939
01:10:44,550 --> 01:10:42,880
measurement just as the indications on

1940
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:44,560
the dials of a dashboard

1941
01:10:49,110 --> 01:10:46,560
are the outcome of measurement if you

1942
01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:49,120
don't measure the dials show nothing if

1943
01:10:53,110 --> 01:10:51,040
you don't measure there is no physical

1944
01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:53,120
world but what is the thing that is

1945
01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:54,960
being measured that's the question

1946
01:10:57,430 --> 01:10:56,239
that's where we are going to make

1947
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:57,440
progress

1948
01:11:01,990 --> 01:11:00,320
if we read what 40 years of experiments

1949
01:11:04,390 --> 01:11:02,000
are telling us if you reheat that

1950
01:11:07,590 --> 01:11:04,400
message we understand that there is a

1951
01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:07,600
deeper layer of reality whose appearance

1952
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:09,280
is physicality

1953
01:11:12,790 --> 01:11:11,520
but not the essence the essence is

1954
01:11:16,310 --> 01:11:12,800
something else

1955
01:11:18,790 --> 01:11:16,320
physics is relative to that deeper layer

1956
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:18,800
and i believe we may even

1957
01:11:23,430 --> 01:11:20,719
arrive eventually

1958
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:23,440
at a deterministic theory of nature

1959
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:25,520
if we start investigating that deeper

1960
01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:26,400
layer

1961
01:11:30,390 --> 01:11:28,560
without holding on to our metaphysical

1962
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:30,400
prejudices that physicality should be

1963
01:11:34,950 --> 01:11:32,800
the end of the story because it's

1964
01:11:36,390 --> 01:11:34,960
holding on to that

1965
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:36,400
that will prevent us from making

1966
01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:37,600
progress

1967
01:11:41,590 --> 01:11:39,520
if we don't heed the results of

1968
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:41,600
experiments but keep on fighting with

1969
01:11:46,550 --> 01:11:43,280
experiments

1970
01:11:48,149 --> 01:11:46,560
based on very implausible hypothesis

1971
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:48,159
we will slow down progress we'll not

1972
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:50,480
stop eventually this whole thing will

1973
01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:53,040
fizzle out you know fantasy doesn't

1974
01:11:55,910 --> 01:11:55,040
cannot last forever

1975
01:11:58,550 --> 01:11:55,920
um

1976
01:11:59,990 --> 01:11:58,560
but it will it will slow it down

1977
01:12:02,149 --> 01:12:00,000
digen

1978
01:12:05,030 --> 01:12:02,159
cppl wants to know thoughts on

1979
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:05,040
yoshibok's theory of consciousness

1980
01:12:09,830 --> 01:12:06,880
that's a question for you i don't know

1981
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:09,840
what progress he has made um since i had

1982
01:12:17,590 --> 01:12:13,199
an interaction i think with this joshua

1983
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:17,600
on my forum years ago 2016 i think

1984
01:12:22,950 --> 01:12:20,640
but i think 2016 if this is the correct

1985
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:22,960
your shabbah

1986
01:13:24,229 --> 01:12:24,560
i

1987
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:29,189
okay everyone

1988
01:13:33,189 --> 01:13:31,270
yeah some people want to know if that

1989
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,199
was the salvator pious who asked that

1990
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:35,520
question yes that's true he is indeed

1991
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:36,719
real he's a

1992
01:13:42,630 --> 01:13:40,239
person he's a perfect

1993
01:13:44,950 --> 01:13:42,640
and jolly fellow we recorded some small

1994
01:13:47,110 --> 01:13:44,960
conversations already about 15 minutes

1995
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:47,120
maybe 30 minutes worth of extra material

1996
01:13:51,189 --> 01:13:48,560
to go at the end of our conversation

1997
01:13:52,950 --> 01:13:51,199
once we do have our live conversation

1998
01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:52,960
because usually what happens is i

1999
01:13:57,510 --> 01:13:55,120
privatize the live recordings which i'm

2000
01:13:59,350 --> 01:13:57,520
going to do here and add extra footage

2001
01:14:01,430 --> 01:13:59,360
improve the quality add a patreon

2002
01:14:04,149 --> 01:14:01,440
request etc

2003
01:14:06,390 --> 01:14:04,159
speaking of a patreon request if this is

2004
01:14:07,990 --> 01:14:06,400
the sort of content that you enjoy and

2005
01:14:10,310 --> 01:14:08,000
want to see more of and you have the

2006
01:14:12,510 --> 01:14:10,320
means and the wants then please do

2007
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:12,520
consider going to

2008
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:14,800
patreon.com it's a significant amount of

2009
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:16,719
work to put some of these on sometimes

2010
01:14:20,950 --> 01:14:19,040
they take weeks so for example with sal

2011
01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:20,960
i want to go through his patents to do

2012
01:14:24,790 --> 01:14:22,560
them justice and that's going to take

2013
01:14:27,189 --> 01:14:24,800
quite some time the reason that sal

2014
01:14:29,030 --> 01:14:27,199
reached out to myself and not others

2015
01:14:32,070 --> 01:14:29,040
will make sense once the interview is

2016
01:14:33,750 --> 01:14:32,080
conducted as well as the reason for

2017
01:14:36,070 --> 01:14:33,760
the interview being pushed to march will

2018
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:36,080
make sense as well

2019
01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:37,679
if you're listening to this on the audio

2020
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:39,120
platforms i know that right now you're

2021
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:40,800
watching but if you're listening to this

2022
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:43,040
on the audio platforms please do leave a

2023
01:14:46,470 --> 01:14:44,640
review on whichever platform you're on

2024
01:14:47,669 --> 01:14:46,480
whether it's itunes

2025
01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:47,679
google

2026
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,440
spotify it

2027
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:51,360
greatly aids the distribution i don't

2028
01:14:55,270 --> 01:14:53,840
think you can leave reviews on spotify

2029
01:14:56,709 --> 01:14:55,280
and if you're watching this and you had

2030
01:14:58,709 --> 01:14:56,719
no clue that there was the audio

2031
01:15:00,470 --> 01:14:58,719
platform versions then search theories

2032
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:00,480
of everything plus whatever audio

2033
01:15:03,750 --> 01:15:02,719
platform it is that is of your choice so

2034
01:15:05,430 --> 01:15:03,760
itunes

2035
01:15:07,030 --> 01:15:05,440
pandora you can find it as well as the

2036
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:07,040
links to them are in the description

2037
01:15:15,750 --> 01:15:12,950
okay thank you all for being here i

2038
01:15:20,630 --> 01:15:17,669
take care everyone thank you again thank

2039
01:15:24,310 --> 01:15:22,630
the podcast is now finished if you'd

2040
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:24,320
like to support conversations like this

2041
01:15:31,590 --> 01:15:27,520
then do consider going to patreon.com

2042
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:31,600
c-u-r-t j-a-i-m-u-n-g-a-l

2043
01:15:35,990 --> 01:15:34,239
that is kurt jaimungle it's support from

2044
01:15:37,830 --> 01:15:36,000
the patrons and from the sponsors that